Bones Bushings - Washers?

by **oddnumber** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:19 pm

Right then, had a couple of bob in my Paypal account so thought I'd try out some Bones medium bushings. I've been reading about though and there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether washers are needed. So, if you've got Bones in a set of standard Indys, are they needed?

Ta very much.

by **Fen** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:37 pm

Well I have Bones meds in my indys, didn't know about adding washers in there. They are a lot better with the Bones bushing than the original ones they were supplied with. I would say try without?

by **JamesC** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:23 pm

Putting a washer board side (bottom) raises the busing slightly and makes it sit better in the hanger seat. Putting a washer road side (top) restricts turning. Taking it out creates a much more carvy truck.

This was discussed just recently as well - http://www.middle-age-shred.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=27213

by **Weirdo** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:48 am

I use them. Can remember what I did. Think I just followed the instructions on the pack. They do make a difference.

by **dave allen** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:53 am

I use the medium ones and I use washers top and bottom.
If you take out the bottom washer it actually changes the geometry of the truck as the Bones bushings aren't as tall as the indy bushing and a washer. We're not talking about much but it does change it.

by **oddnumber** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:20 am

Thanks all, much appreciated ..-

I'd heard about omitting a bottom washer throwing geometry off, then I'd heard folk saying that there's no need for a washer at all as they're built in, then another bugger mentioned fitting them to lows with no washers ...

Washers it is then :lol:

by **Fen** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:33 am

Thought you meant you were adding washers but you just mean the washer on the indy truck? Got a bit confused. I have the top washer on.

by **oddnumber** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:38 am

Fen wrote:Thought you meant you were adding washers but you just mean the washer on the indy truck?

Yup, thats the one. I don't want to add extra, I was wondering about leaving on whats there already. Mind you at my level will I notice a difference any way? :lol:

by **Mike9000** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:58 am

dave allen wrote:If you take out the bottom washer it actually changes the geometry of the truck as the Bones bushings aren't as tall as the indy bushing and a washer. We're not talking about much but it does change it.

That might be why I really disliked them at first. After an hour or so I was OK - no bottom washer here.

by **Bromptonaut** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:01 pm

Top washer only for me which I think tallies with the instructions on the packet. I find it fine although I might give it a go with the bottom washer on and no top washer by the sounds of some of these posts.

by **chuffedankles** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:58 pm

I did away with the bottom (baseplate) washer, as per the instructions inside the box. Amazing!

by **Hagwag** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:14 pm

dave allen wrote:I use the medium ones and I use washers top and bottom.
If you take out the bottom washer it actually changes the geometry of the truck as the Bones bushings aren't as tall as the indy bushing and a washer. We're not talking about much but it does change it.

I've found this after years pissing around with different bushings/rubbers. Everyone seems to forget they are different heights (and I only noticed a few months or so ago).

Barrel bushings on the bottom make your ride a huge load more stable I've found than riding tapered ones. Great with a soft one on top which is turny. Got 97a Khiros on the bottom and bones hard on top and in my stage 9 Indys with the bolts just upto the lock bit. Probably not enough for most on here but turn great for me after years of tight trucks as I just used to skate rails and steps.

by **Mr J** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:03 am

dave allen wrote:..
If you take out the bottom washer it actually changes the geometry of the truck as the Bones bushings aren't as tall as the indy bushing and a washer. We're not talking about much but it does change it.

After staring at one of my Theeve trucks I have concluded that removing the bottom washer will make it LESS turny.

I have medium bones in my Theeve Ti-Ax, single washer on top, they were bought that way and the pivot seems to be at the correct angle for the cup, although its too soon to tell how the pivot cups are wearing. For me that would be the bigger issue rather than any changes to the turn geometry.

Unlike many bushings Bones have a small enough top bushing to fit into Thunder Hi trucks, although I had to get rid of both washers to make them fit, they seem fine

by **Mr J** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:13 am

Hagwag wrote:.

Barrel bushings on the bottom make your ride a huge load more stable I've found than riding tapered ones..

I noticed that too, when I first tried Bones years ago I was doing little else but mini ramp. In a 4' mini-ramp I found the squirrely feel of the board when in fakie on the flat bottom disconcerting and gave up on the Bones, I think boards that have a low turn geometry are an advantage in the back and forth nature of mini-ramp! Nowadays I do little else other than flatland and I only try fakie tricks at slow speed. Going regular at hi speed is easy enough, so I like the feel of the extra turny coned/rounded bottom bushing now.

by **TonyB** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:24 am

The answer is yes you should use washers.

The bottom one in particular as it maintains the geometry of the truck and the correct angle for the pivot on the hanger to fit in to the pivot bushing in the baseplate.

Top one helps to protect the plastic part of the bushing.

by **Mr J** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:02 am

by **Mr J** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:12 am

the first vid showed installing with bottom washer, but I don't know what trucks they were. All the pics I have seen of Theeve trucks don't use the bottom washer, but have a top one - just like how mine were bought. The same person in this vid!

by **Woody** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:51 am

Top and bottom washers for me, bottom one to keep the hanger angle as close to original and the top one just puts my kingpin nut so it on to end of the nylock so no kingpin is exposed. Medium bones hardcore like my trucks to turn.

by **Ash P** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:59 am

I don't think I could get the bottem washer on mine, with my mediums on my 169s with the top washer on the kingpin nut is just on as it is, if I put the bottom one on too then I dont think the nut would go on or i'd have to tighten up the nut too tight for my liking

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

by **Cookie** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:43 pm

I ride Indys with Bones bushings, I tried to follow the instructions with the bushes regarding washers, but I could'nt even fit one on let alone two, but for me they ride fine like that anyway.

by **TonyB** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:38 pm

Ash P wrote:I don't think I could get the bottem washer on mine, with my mediums on my 169s with the top washer on the kingpin nut is just on as it is, if I put the bottom one on too then I dont think the nut would go on or i'd have to tighten up the nut too tight for my liking

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

This does not make a lot of sense, Bones fit Indy's with no problems, you either have low trucks (designed not to turn as much) the bushes were also shorter or very short kingpins.

by **Jase** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:48 pm

TonyB wrote:
Ash P wrote:I don't think I could get the bottem washer on mine, with my mediums on my 169s with the top washer on the kingpin nut is just on as it is, if I put the bottom one on too then I dont think the nut would go on or i'd have to tighten up the nut too tight for my liking

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk 2

This does not make a lot of sense, Bones fit Indy's with no problems, you either have low trucks (designed not to turn as much) the bushes were also shorter or very short kingpins.

I had the same problem on 149's and 129's, and neither were lows.

by **Mr J** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:54 am

from the reports I'm reading here, my conclusion is that one or more of the following things are happening:

1. Independent trucks have a tendency to be made with inaccurate geometry.
2. Bones bushings have a tendency to be made with inaccurate heights.
3. Non standard king pins.
4. The arm strength of the MAS truck tweaking enthusiast varies wildly with some possessing hands with the grip of a vice and able to squash down bushings.

My guess is that there is a bit of 1. going on. Plastic bushing surely shouldn't come out of the mold with a thickness that vary by as much as the thickness of a washer?

by **Mike9000** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:01 am

I'd suspect differing kingpin heights from different batches of trucks is possible. My Bones mediums are fine in both my 129 and 149 Indys. I'll be able to tell you about 139's when they arrive either today or tomorrow.

by **oddnumber** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:52 am

Bushings arrived today - I've had to leave off the top washer because there was no way that the nut was going anywhere near the kingpin with it

by **Woody** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:58 am

oddnumber wrote:Bushings arrived today - I've had to leave off the top washer because there was no way that the nut was going anywhere near the kingpin with it

Then I would be leaving the bottom washer off, I have seen the top rubbers plastic insert crack through force from the side of the nut when under pressure, are you riding low trucks at all ?

by **oddnumber** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:31 am

Woody wrote:
oddnumber wrote:Bushings arrived today - I've had to leave off the top washer because there was no way that the nut was going anywhere near the kingpin with it

Then I would be leaving the bottom washer off, I have seen the top rubbers plastic insert crack through force from the side of the nut when under pressure, are you riding low trucks at all ?

Nope, regular stage 10 149s Woody. I'll chuck the bottom washer and add the top then. In all honesty at my level of skating would I even notice a difference? :lol:

by **Bromptonaut** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:15 pm

Interestingly, I saw a picture of Steve Caballero's set-up for the recent vert demo he did in London and he had bones medium bushings without any top or bottom washer. That seems pretty loose for a vert set-up but he's obviously got great board control.

by **Ash P** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:08 pm

Bromptonaut wrote:Interestingly, I saw a picture of Steve Caballero's set-up for the recent vert demo he did in London and he had bones medium bushings without any top or bottom washer. That seems pretty loose for a vert set-up but he's obviously got great board control.

And he's probobly got a stash of them so not worried about shredding the bushing on the nut

BTW, the guy in the videos above rides his trucks as per the bx instructions which is the opposite to how he describes installation in the video :roll:

by **Mr J** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:27 am

oddnumber wrote:... I'll chuck the bottom washer and add the top then. In all honesty at my level of skating would I even notice a difference?

yup, I think thats what the instructions say. Convince yourself you will notice the difference, thats what I do

My Theeves work just fine with bones top washer only (that's how they were bought). My Thunder Hi trucks work just fine with Bones and no washers at all (plenty of testing there). I can definately tell the difference between the Bones and the original Thunder bushings (easier to turn coz the Bones are blue soft ones and original thunder quite hard). However take what I am saying with a pinch of salt coz I don't do much else but go straight on flatland :lol:

regardless, I'm happy with the Bones bushings

by **Mr J** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:33 am

oddnumber wrote:..t so thought I'd try out some Bones medium bushings. ..

In my Theeves I've got the yellow medium bushings. I am completely happy with them

My Theeve trucks are a little wider than my Thunders, so the harder bushings make sense (more leverage from the wider axle). Thats what I tell myself anyway.

by **Brian S** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:25 am

I'm Glad I've got Khiro's with the attached metal top, saves all this messing about by the sounds of it & they work fine

by **oddnumber** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:42 am

I had another look last night, and from what I can make out it's closer to original geometry if you don't use the bottom washer. Not much in it, but the bones bottom bushing is a gnat's cock taller than the Indy one. And it means I can fit the top washer on now too. Winner!

It's a good hour of my life gone though. As if i'd have noticed the difference anyway :lol:

by **Mr J** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:16 pm

oddnumber wrote:It's a good hour of my life gone though. As if i'd have noticed the difference anyway

it is time well spent and this thread brings entertainment to far corners of the world. I have thoroughly enjoyed staring at my trucks these last few days.

by **oddnumber** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Mr J wrote:
oddnumber wrote:It's a good hour of my life gone though. As if i'd have noticed the difference anyway

it is time well spent and this thread brings entertainment to far corners of the world. I have thoroughly enjoyed staring at my trucks these last few days.

by **SimonB** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:46 pm

oddnumber wrote:I had another look last night, and from what I can make out it's closer to original geometry if you don't use the bottom washer. Not much in it, but the bones bottom bushing is a gnat's cock taller than the Indy one. And it means I can fit the top washer on now too. Winner!

It's a good hour of my life gone though. As if i'd have noticed the difference anyway

Inspired by this classic MAS thread (dont you just love MAS

) I did the same thing at the weekend and found the opposite !

My Bones medium bottom bushing is actually slightly lower than the Indy one and adding a bottom washer (which I have now done) brings the height back to the original

I think that all this just highlights the lack of precision engineering in skate products and that as much as I love all this anorak stuff, a lot of it is really a little bit academic (but dont get me started on the metric bearings / imperial axles issue !!).

Having said that I have recently spent hours playing around with my longboard bushings, mounting hardware, mounting washers, spacers etc and had great fun :oops:

by **Mr J** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:38 am

SimonB wrote:.
My Bones medium bottom bushing is actually slightly lower than the Indy one and adding a bottom washer (which I have now done) brings the height back to the original

I think that all this just highlights the lack of precision engineering in skate products ..

Simon, I assume you were comparing a fairly old standard indy bushing with a new bones. So the bones wasn't measured after getting squashed against a new indy bushing?

to my list of possible theories, I now add:
- indy bushings are made with inconsistent heights.

by **Fen** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:32 am

Before this thread I just stuck the Bones bushings in the trucks, put the washers back on (nut only just goes on) and thought that was it. Now I am going to have to try without washers, top washers, bottom washer etc in case I am missing out on the perfect ride.
Which way will make me skate better?

If I ever get to skate that is.

by **Mr J** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:53 am

Fen wrote:Before this thread I just stuck the Bones bushings in the trucks, put the washers back on (nut only just goes on) and thought that was it. ...

you can do that and it will work fine, but its more interesting to visually check if the pivot goes into its cup at just the right angle, press the wheels towards the deck with your hands and watch what happens, remove the bushing for height comparison with the old ones and also to see how they are standing up to the skating. The bones bushings in my Theeves and Thunders are in excellent condition, although I probably don't stress them as much as most (going straight on flatland, no bowl carving). They get their most vigorous workout from skewed trick landings.

by **JamesC** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:01 am

Here's my view on things.
Adding bottom washer keeps geometry correct. Taking the bottom washer out lowers the truck and reduces turning a little bit.
Adding top washer restricts amount truck can turn as washer binds on hanger and also prevents as much movent in bushing. Keeping washer in does help prevent damage to plastic insert. I've never had any probs with this but people who crank their nuts down do.

So what to do? If you just like going backwards and forwards and not bothered by turning then take out bottom washer and add washer to the top. If like me you like to carve a bowl and turn then it's washer in bottom and not in the top. I run trucks loose so don't worry about the plastic insert being damaged. Or lastly if you don't give a fuck then do what ever you want

Saying that I found Ace trucks that really turn so have now ditched Indys

by **Woody** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:21 am

JamesC wrote:Adding top washer restricts amount truck can turn as washer binds on hanger and also prevents as much movent in bushing.

Hey trust me I run "loose" trucks

... but what the hell size of top washer you using for it to bind on the hanger, mines miles clear

by **JamesC** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:31 am

The one supplied with the trucks. Deffo restricts movement. Got others to remove their top washer and they have also said there is greater movement. Dunno, maybe its the shit cast indys rearing their heads again

by **TonyB** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:29 pm

Change the washer - maybe use a smaller flat washer or one that is not quite so dished. Washers do vary, but you shouldn't be having issues with it hitting the hanger. Maintaining the correct geometry is important, which is why I said you should use the bottom washer, the hanger will lean towards the kingpin if you don't keep the pivot on the hanger seated centrally in the pivot cup.

by **oddnumber** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:42 pm

TonyB wrote:Maintaining the correct geometry is important, which is why I said you should use the bottom washer, the hanger will lean towards the kingpin if you don't keep the pivot on the hanger seated centrally in the pivot cup.

That would be ideal, but how many of us would realistically notice a difference between bottom washer installed/bottom washer removed? Not many I reckon.

by **Woody** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:00 pm

Try this and you will see how much difference it will make ..
Place the top rubber ( the smaller one) on the bottom and the large one on the top nip the nut up you will see how close the hanger gets to the kingpin, the lower the bottom bushing is , ie no washer the closer the hanger gets to the kingpin/washer
should give you an idea of how much that little bit alters the angle

by **Jase** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:15 pm

I've just put some Bone's bushings into some Shiner Indy knock off's, with both washers and plenty of room left for the king pin nut.

So Mr J you can now add to your list that other companies engineer Indy's more precisely than Indy do :twisted:

by **john92** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:16 pm

I just put together a set of Indy 139's with the all black Bones hard bushings. I left the bottom washer off and put the top washer on with no problems. That's what the instructions say to do. It was close until the nut got started but then it went together fine.

by **Mike9000** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:53 am

I have now upped my game and gone for full washers on the Bones rubbers :shock:

by **Mr J** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:45 am

Ash P wrote:..
BTW, the guy in the videos above rides his trucks as per the bx instructions which is the opposite to how he describes installation in the video

pro skaters, they are great to watch, but don't know one end of a kingpin from the other. Some of them don't even bother to put all their truck mounting bolts in.

by **Mr J** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:01 am

Jase wrote:I've just put some Bone's bushings into some Shiner Indy knock off's, with both washers and plenty of room left for the king pin nut.

So Mr J you can now add to your list that other companies engineer Indy's more precisely than Indy do

yes, or the knock offs can be more generous with the amount of useable king pin.

I am not knocking Independent trucks/bushings, Eric Koston one of the best skaters in the world uses them and it seems 99.9% of MAS use them as their preferred truck.

however I do suspect some inaccuracy coz circa 2007 when I was getting back into skating for the third time and trying to discover which of the modern equipment best suits me I bought shop complete pool board - quite wide with wide independent trucks to see whether a bigger board would suit me. After a while of riding them with the orange bushings they came with I bought some proper Independent soft bushings to see how they would go, but was unable to even get the thread on the nut to catch on the king-pin - I ended up chopping the replacement bushings with a stanley knife to make them fit.

by **Mr J** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:20 am

trucks are by their nature mechanically imperfect. For the truck to rock from one side to the other and have the pivot rotate perfectly in the cup the kingpin would need to be at right angles to the pivot, but it isn't. So instead there is some twisting around the king pin. The hole in the hangar where the king pin goes is extra big to accommodate the bushing squashing in all directions. The manufacturers realise this and the hole in the hangar is not just extra big, but it is slotted coz as a truck gets leaned hard the king pin moves from being closer to the axle to further away from the axle. (having a lower bottom bushing pushes it closer to the axle in the resting position).

So no matter how perfectly we retain the intended bottom bushing height the pivot will perform a sort of cork screwing motion in the cup.

I had a look at the heights of various bottom bushings - a new Khiro bitch bushing (yellow), a fairly new thunder bushing (white), a lightly used yellow bones bushing and a well used Khiro bitch bushing (red). All much the same height although the soft Khiro bushing had sort of become rounded on both the washer side and hangar side with the height in the middle being retained, but lower on the side walls.

from my I'm a spammy wanker floor this morning...

by **dave allen** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:35 am

Mr J wrote:
Ash P wrote:..
BTW, the guy in the videos above rides his trucks as per the bx instructions which is the opposite to how he describes installation in the video

pro skaters, they are great to watch, but don't know one end of a kingpin from the other. Some of them don't even bother to put all their truck mounting bolts in.

What a bunch of lazy useless twats!

by **Mr J** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:29 am

dave allen wrote:
Mr J wrote:
Ash P wrote:..
BTW, the guy in the videos above rides his trucks as per the bx instructions which is the opposite to how he describes installation in the video

pro skaters, they are great to watch, but don't know one end of a kingpin from the other. Some of them don't even bother to put all their truck mounting bolts in.

What a bunch of lazy useless twats!

I was just taking the piss in a friendly way

I love watching the pros on the DVDs. However Corey Duffel and Jerry Hsu are two examples of pros who sometimes use only two mounting bolts to attach a truck (diagonally), I suppose they think the other two holes are optional a bit like some MAS buy trucks drilled for both old school and new school holes.

by **oddnumber** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:38 pm

Well after a session at Deeside last night with m'new Bones Bushings in, I can categorically state I didn't like them at all :lol:

I'll be putting the stock Indy ones back in for sure.

by **HarryR** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:16 pm

oddnumber wrote:Well after a session at Deeside last night with m'new Bones Bushings in, I can categorically state I didn't like them at all

I'll be putting the stock Indy ones back in for sure.

Why, what was wrong with them?

by **JamesC** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:23 pm

The stock indy bushings have imho got to be the worst bushings on the planet. Absolutely no rebound at all and are like riding with squidgy foam. Each to their own though

by **oddnumber** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:05 pm

Harry Ramsden wrote:
oddnumber wrote:Well after a session at Deeside last night with m'new Bones Bushings in, I can categorically state I didn't like them at all

I'll be putting the stock Indy ones back in for sure.

Why, what was wrong with them?

A particular bout of squirrelyness when hooning around the bowl sent me flat on my arse. Didn't matter how much I adjusted them, they still felt weird.

by **TonyB** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:48 pm

oddnumber - Which Bones bushes did you try? Yellows? If they were to wobbly try the Hard Black tops.

If you are feeling wobbly maybe you need to go for a barrel shaped bushing that has a bit more urethane and resistance to it, I know that most of my set ups seem to end up this way, its more stable.

by **Mr J** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:55 pm

oddnumber wrote:Well after a session at Deeside last night with m'new Bones Bushings in, I can categorically state I didn't like them at all

I'll be putting the stock Indy ones back in for sure.

now that you have started your exploration into the special interest world of after-market bushings why don't you take it a little further. You can have combination setups like what Hagwag and Tony were suggesting.

At no extra cost you can put your bottom indy ones back in and put the Bones top ones on. I think you will get something that tends towards the original independent feel but a bit more turny than before.

by **Mr J** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:07 am

oddnumber wrote:...
A particular bout of squirrelyness ....Didn't matter how much I adjusted them, they still felt weird.

definateley they are more squirrely in a way that goes beyond and differences of softness or resistance to leaning over.

Yesterday was a rest day (I need my rest days, I had skated friday), but today I went skating

I used my board with thunder trucks and soft bones, no washers. The yellow one in the vid above, the one I disassembled was my Theeve setup.

Anyway on the way back home I was sitting on the tram and I confirmed something I had noticed before - if I press the wheels towards the deck with my hand and watch the bottom bushing, the hard plastic base of the bones bushing does not rotate over the metal of the baseplate and instead stays put. So what I think is happening is that due to the truck geometry I described in a previous post the force on the bottom bushing is not just squashing side to side, but twisting and because the bones bushing has a smaller diameter base it will more readily twist. Whereas an independent barrel will do less twisting and more squashing from side to side. Because of the large sloppy hole in the hangar there is room for the hangar to move in the individual way of different bushings.

So the same truck hangar is rotating more than it used to thus adding extra turn to its geometry. That's my theory anyway. I think this theory can be extended into the top bushing too.